" Continued Discussion from Other Night ( " (Slaanesh) back

2004/11/23, 06:45, Slaanesh:

Ok, as you know, my first thought is that what we really need are fewer well thought out classes then a bunch of half designed classes that are mostly useless. I also agree with Daemor that some classes should carry over to multiple races (mostly good side, like humans being able to be wizards and druids for instance) as well. My second thought was that at the moment, with the current smallish player base, we cannot afford to have 3 sides of the war, it makes the game seem very unpopulated on each side. It also at the same time makes even more half designed classes that need balancing. I suggest good side and greenskins, simply for the fact that both make sense from a warhammer perspective. Skavens add a nice touch to the game, but that simple fact of warhammer is skavens weren't running around all over. Few people know about them, and most of those are thought to be heretics. Third thought, make each stat mean something or get rid of it. Basically I am referring to aptitude. One way to make this stat mean something important is to make it affect something worthwhile. My suggestion is to make exp gains dependant on your aptitude. This would fit the rp scheme of warhammer as well. Statwise the big advantage the good side has is that they have much higher aptitude. What this means is that, as an example, an orc maruader is bigger and stronger than a human and able to withstand more punishment, the humans advantage is that it learns from its mistakes easier and is usually better trained. Of course this calculation would have to be adjusted per statchange, so you wouldn't have players abusing it by exping with max apt for example, then later switching it to min and raising something else. Thus if a player lowered their apt, their total exp might drop and they might even lose a level. Another idea would also be to have apt be a determining factor on your spell %s if you are using mage spells. I specifically mean mages as they have to be book smart to cast spells, wheres shamans and clerics draw their power from divine inspiration Fourth idea, which was brought up by Emre. Rework alot of the zones we already got to make them more roleplayish/warhammerish. Also add some newbie friendliness to the appropriate ones. We have alot of zones which pretty much have no life in them. Many could be spruced up with storytellers, quests, and the like. For me the most boring factor starting here was wandering around Altdorf. It was some huge city where you couldn't do anything! Couldn't buy anything, couldn't kill anything, couldn't talk to anything and 99% of the mobs didn't react to you. Dreadfully dull for such a huge city. I believe we have a few gods who are more interested in roleplay then pkilling, they would be perfect to creating things they think would at atmosphere to the game. I think Grunburg will add alot too when it is ready. Ok, those are most of the main points I remember, I'll add comments further describing ideas for each thought as they come to me.

2004/11/23, 10:11, Slaanesh:

Ok, ideas for revamping classes. I'll start with the classes, why I picked which races and what I'd like to do with each of them. I'll prob break these into several posts as well. Good side classes: Cleric (elf, human) Druid (elf, human) Mage (elf, human) Ranger (elf, human) Rogue (elf, human) Slayer (dwarf) Soldier (human) Warrior (dwarf, elf, human) Wardancer (elf) The first class is cleric. A cleric is pretty much a devoted servant of a god or goddess who champions their cause. In our game clerics are pretty much just healers, but I think that that's a bit limited. There are many gods and each has differant values. I can see how that would be complicated though at first, so I suggest we assume for the moment that all clerics are devotees of Shallya, the goddess of healing and mercy. A baisc list of old world warhammer gods for humans can be found at http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/wfrp/religion_in_the_old_world.shtml. All warhammer world religion pantheon are on good terms with her, so it shouldn't be a far stretch to think elves and humans could be devoted to her service. I didn't include dwarves as they use a differant form of magic (runes). I say start clerics of Shallya at the minimum alignment for good, which would be I think 300, as she is listed as a goddess of good. Basic skill list for cleric of shallya: 1) staves concussion flails I would think that the basic training of every priest would include beginner level practice with a non-blood drawing type of weapon. Unlike spells these don't really become more powerful as you gain levels so see no harm in giving earlier since they cannot rely on spells. aura of faith - make this a class only skill that is turned on and off, no need for practices. The power should be determined by your alignment instead, so as you become more and more in tune with Shallya's wishes, your protection is increased. Also, I dont think Shallya priests should be armored templars, so we should encourage rp reasons for them to act more like a priest should. ameliorating touch (spell) - maybe add in an alignment modifier? endow (spell) rinse (spell) sacred warding (spell) bandage herblores - this skill would give the cleric better chance at success for or improve some skills, like say bandage and poultrice poultrice - this skill would allow clerics to use their knowledge of wounds to speed up the recovery process of hps by a small margine, improvable by knowledge and the use of herbs that can be found. 2) tailoring smithing carpeting 3) swimming climbing riding tracking wilderness - basic outdoor survival skills 5) divine blaze (spell) refresh (spell) banishment (spell) increase the level, but also increase the usability. make it usable on all corporal undead/demons as well as spirits, otherwise the use is too limited and specialized to be worth learning dodge parry shield block - here is when the cleric is taught the basic tenets of self defense memorize search 10) rod of shallya (spell) - pretty much same idea as my hammer of sigmar idea on idea board (post 351) heal the faithful (spell) sacellum (spell) change it slightly so that it costs alot more mana, but also works like a refresh spell for all in the room depending on their alignment dual wield two handed wielding evasive style rescue - is taught some more fighting techniques that do not cause undue injury 15) winds of shallya (spell) - this spell would cause a wind to blow through the room and carry away enemies a random distance and location, depending on their strength and weight. only works in outdoor rooms. cup of purity (spell) - caster must have a drink container. when cast the cup is filled with a liquid that when drunk will remove the effects of one malady, such as poison, plague, or a spell that is causing continuous damage of some sort. it also removes thirst of course Basically, the priest of shallya should be a support person. The cleric should get small amounts of exp for healing as well. not enough to be huge so as to avoid idiots abusing the situation, but enough to reward the cleric. I also recommend at some point we add a decent temple of shallya and give quests that reflect a players commitment to shallya. Also, possibly make some holy items that would aid a cleric and help represent their faith. Stuff that adds more rp to the class would help dramatically.

2004/11/23, 14:55, Daemor:

I think Slaanesh here are proposing a fairly decent draft of a reworked cleric class. I do fully agree with him that cleric should be available to elf as well as human, and that a cleric should be of a certain god (chosen at character-generation) Choose race: human Choose class: cleric Choose patron deity: shallya of course in the beginning this choice of deity won't be available, since we should concentrate on one (or perhaps we can be able to do two: Shallya and Sigmar? Shallya being something like Jeff describes, while Sigmar will be a bit more combat/paladin-oriented maybe?) One of the spell ideas in your post however mentions poisons, disesase, plague. None of these exist yet, but I find them to be very, very important to make the world feel like it is actually alive (making death and disease more a reality than just through combat). So IMO that is a part of new code that should be prioritized soon... I also agree with Slaanesh on the point of Aura being a class-skill rather than spell. -- As for the more general ideas. I agree that we should focus more on getting current classes/races balanced, than adding too much new stuff. I do agree that the playerbase is too small to support three sides of war fully, but I am not sure how wise it will be to remove an already existing race from the game... I also believe that if we are to keep 3 sides, or remove and later add. the third side (Skavens) should be -harder- to play (i.e. have more maluses). This is to have a challenge for experienced players. If all races are flat (too similar in difficulty) people that have played alot will easily get bored because there are no real challenges. Those who do not enjoy challenges may still have fun playing the 'easier' races. I also like the aptitude idea very much. Having aptitude really worth something is very important. It is also important to make it so the newbies choosing option 1 in character generation actually gets a decent set of stats. Reworking zones is also a great idea, but this requires an insanely amount of work for someone inexperienced in building, and we do not have that many experienced builders today. It also requires the amount of creative thinking that most builders should have, but doesn't necessarily have. Most of the 'poor' zones today I reckon are the way they are because whoever built them isn't a creative thinker, but a logic thinker (most gamers are of the latter-type, having left-side of brain being dominating one). It also requires more knowledge of the actual warhammer world for it to be more consistent with warhammer. Another problem there is, the more 'consistent' it becomes with warhammer, the higher the risk that GW will not like us much... If we are to make our world as consistent as possible we should perhaps contact GW with a letter, asking for permission? Other than that I do agree that we should work more on the older zones, not only to give them more life, but also to bring them up to a standard of consistency with the other zones. Having zones interact more (i.e loading mobs/objects in one zone that is required for another) for instance. I guess this point (zone-reworking) is where I can contribute most myself. Grunburg will be a good place. And it would finish up faster if more of the writers+ could drop by it and desc something. At the moment most of the work is done by me and fate, while rogon, hobby and mengil have done a few rooms/mobs. - Daem

2004/11/23, 15:05, Daemor:

Another thing that is needed for all this to work depends on a couple of things: a) creative discussions, where we come with ideas as a group of 'management' with constructive thoughts on eachother's ideas (constructive does not mean that you find the flaws in an idea, but rather that you find ideas to FIX the flaws in an idea) b) assigned supervisors for the various tasks. we need to have someone supervising rewamping of zones. another supervising the rewamping/fixing of old objects/mobiles. another supervising the building of new zones. further it can also be an idea to have someone supervising the balancing of the game. and on top of this we have rogon supervising the supervisors. (and axel the coders/scripters). The biggest problem here is that we do not have enough people to do this at the moment, and that we do not have a great system of getting people up to such a level fast. People are forced to do zones (high creative thinking) before they can stuff that requires more logic than creative thinking. Many people tire out on the fact that they need to desc an entire zone to become worth anything, and we can't drop people into already existing zones to fix because we can't trust them enough or something like this. I do not have alot of answers how to fix this, but it is something I have spent some time thinking on how to solve. Our biggest problem is no matter how we look at it: the amount of people we have. One partly-solution is to have an 'official' testwarp up, where we can allow ourselves a bit more trust onto new writer+ ppl. (put an apprentice that passed testrooms into an existing zone, but in testwarp so that he can't change anything that affects real game. Then he does the work in testwarp, and it is approved and then moved into the real game. - Daem

2004/11/23, 15:31, Slaanesh:

In fairness to alot of the older builders, they did not have all the tools current builders have, such as storytellers. Sigmar would be a good choice for a priest, as he is the major diety for the Empire in the warhammer world. Without Sigmar there would be no Empire period. Other decent choices for the future would me Morr and Ulric. Each priest should have some skills and specialities to them that reflect on their worship. For example, priests of Sigmar should be required to use hammers as their weapon as thats Sigmar's big sign, Ulric's worshippers prob wouldn't care what weapon you use, Morr's would use scythes or daggers etc etc. Anything that promotes roleplay and adds to the atmosphere of the game.

2004/11/23, 15:53, Daemor:
Yes, but lets focus on the one or two that we should get ready first, before we delve too much into other gods... =) What about the other classes, do you have equally thought through ideas for them? - Daem

2004/11/23, 16:07, Slaanesh:

I have ideas for almost all of them, just wanted to see if there was enough interest in what I am doing here before I write out 50 pages of semi-documentation for nothing hehe. Hints to come: for wardancers make them what they are supposed to be, troubador warriors. Give them singing and musical skills in addition to dancing. For druids more skills that show a druids special bond with nature. etc etc

2004/11/23, 16:26, Rogon:

A few opinions... Improving old zones - this would be great. Putting in a few more interesting things, scripts, quests etc. Ideas for this can come from basically anyone, but actually working (editing things) in an open zone should only be done by an experienced builder (preferably lvl 204 atleast). Classes - I don't honestly see the need to add any more than we have. Cleric for elf, ranger for human, and so on. I like the uniqueness of a cleric being human, and a druid being an elf. Unless we can bring meaning and have differences in the skills they have between a human druid and an elven druid, i think it would just be watering down the classes to give them to several races. But I would rather build on the elven druid (for example) for now, and worry about human druids when we have gotten elven druids where we want them skill/spell/feature-wise Subclasses - This is what i call it when a cleric can be of different dieties, for example, with special skills most suitable for that god. I like the idea of this, for all classes. For example a soldier could become a paladin, mercenary, knight, while clerics be of different gods, and so on for other classes. However, imho this should wait until we have the basic classes worked out. First we should improve the normal cleric until we feel it more or less 'complete', then start thinking about splitting it up into several smaller subclasses which each have their own skills/spells/features. So what I think on classes is basically - Improve the existing ones first. Then we can think about expanding it with classes for other races and subclasses.

2004/11/23, 18:12, Daemor:

A cleric without a deity will not be able to cast any spell imo. Thus we kind of need the 'subclass' as you call it for clerics. Anyhow, Slaanesh suggestion was that the basic cleric as it is now is in fact a cleric of Shallya, which would make sense since it is healing based atm. And your idea of subclass is that a character gets this subclass ingame and not as a part of character generation, or am I wrong? As for your view on classes being total race restricted, I would call that a very narrow-minded pov. Races all have various strong sides and weak sides, an elven cleric, although with the same skills, would not be equal to a human cleric, because their racial adjustments would be different. IMO we should split up the part of character creation where you choose class into two steps: a) Race and b) Class. As it is now it seems essentially more like Elven Druid is a class named Elven Druid and not an Elf with the Class Druid etc. -- That said, for classes, especially Druid and Ranger, I think new features are needed for them to be interesting enough. Druid need druid spells, and ranger needs bow! Without the bow, there is no point in having ranger class at all. It's just a poor druid atm. The same goes, I think, for the greenskin version called Hunter. As for druid, its spells have either been used as wizard or cleric spells, or cleric/wizards have used druid spells. IMO spells shouldn't be as freeforall as skills. Spells require study and or faith strong enough to grant them. I do not mind the fact that skills/spells are restricted to certain races/classes. In fact, I would hope it was more so. This will make the game more interesting in the long run, since there are several different tactics/characters to try out. Another solution would be to make an entirely classless system. As things are now however, we only have predetermined combinations of: warrior, rogue and spellcaster. - Daem

2004/11/23, 18:25, Daemor:

Further point on the subclasses. IMO subclasses should only be minor variations within a predetermined class, such as a couple of skills only available to said subclass. Thus it should not be a big balancing problem to add subclasses IMO, plus it will make classes more interesting, and there will be more choices to try out. I don't have time to think thoroughly on this now, but I will think more on it and try to come with suggestions for more classes. Missile weapons tho! I do recollect giving a few ideas earlier that would fit ranger/rogue type classes though.. don't know what happened to those. - Daem

2004/11/24, 00:30, Rogon:
Subclasses would indeed not be a huge change or rework of the existing class, they would just involve a few features/bonuses/skills/spells on top of the already existing class. But if you think 3-5 of these subclasses per class and a few things for each, it is quite alot of things to add.

2004/11/26, 15:42, Taal:

In an above post, you (Rogon/Tzeentch) say: I like the uniqueness of a cleric being human, and a druid being an elf. Unless we can bring meaning and have differences in the skills they have between a human druid and an elven druid, i think it would just be watering down the classes to give them to several races. But you have yet to respond to my counter of the various races having different strong/weak sides. In addition, the opinon you state hasn't, in my opinion, been justified with anything but that you 'like the uniqueness'. There is no basis in an argument such as 'in warhammer, druids belong to the elves' or that 'humans don't wander in the forest the way elves does' or anything like that. -- As for subclasses. I would like to separate it into two concepts. a) subclass and b) prestige class. If we for instance compare ourself with the RPG called D&D, there are various classes, including cleric, and there are various prestige classes (what you think of as subclasses). The cleric, as a normal class, actually selects a deity at the beginning, and he/she receives a set of special spells and a special ability that sets him/her apart from other clerics. This is not counted for as a prestige class, but rather a subclass of cleric. It doesn't unbalance the game in anyway imo either. Therefore, I think we should try to make the clerics have various subclasses (deities), while the thing we have referred to earlier (a subclass you get not in chargen, but in game) as prestige class. It should not be a problem f.i. having two-three spells differ from each 'cleric-subclass' and perhaps one special skill for each subclass to reflect upon the deity. I do NOT agree that we should make a cleric that is just: cleric. since this goes against the whole idea of what a cleric is. A cleric should HAVE to choose a DEITY at beginning of game, and this thing should not be compared to the 'subclasses' per se. There could / will be other 'subclasses' (or prestige classes) for a cleric to choose from in game when we add such a feature. And we do not have to have 3-5 subclasses (prestige classes) per class when that is added either. It would be sufficient even to have 1 prestige class for each class to start with, or 2 at the most. The characters still would have the choice of NOT becoming of that prestige class. (It should be a quest needed to become of a prestige class). - Taal, the God of Wild Places

2004/11/27, 20:23, Faust:

I think it's a bad idea to have clerics choose what deity they worship when they create the character. I've seen this in other muds, and when you're new and have to choose, you don't know anything about the deities really. Of course this isn't the biggest problem since you can allways create another char if you want to worship another deity. What I think would be cool is if you could choose what deity to worship as you go along. I.e. a cleric could change deity, perhaps it would be impossible to change from some chaos god to a god of order, or maybe you couldn't change after a certain level or so. I have an area-idea of a temple of evil-worshippers where an evil aligned human could learn black magicks, perhaps against a fee. What I'm saying is that it would be a bit of a constraint if a cleric had to choose a deity at character-creation, which he had to stick with forever. And it's silly if there's some evil temple in the middle of town where lowbies can prac necromancing etc. It's better in my opinion if this is something players can choose to switch to when they are older and more powerful. /Faust the Evil Templar

2004/11/27, 22:41, Bragni:

you could just hold off on having to declare a Deity till say ....10th level. that will give them time to grow their character. the way to make them choose is simple they hit 11th level and havent selected a Deity to follow = tough luck your spells stop working. As to clerics and druids changing Deities as they grow i can see that happening.....with them losing all spells and getting slapped back to level 1.

2004/11/28, 21:31, Slaanesh:

In my workings I am going to propose you start at level 1 as a base 'cleric', that the player has had a career in something else (ie he was a tailor, a blacksmith, wandered the woods, was a farmer, whatever) and then decided that serving a higher deity was their calling. They will start off with basic farming and hunting weapon skill choices, but will not get any spell or deity benefits. They will then whenever they are ready be able to apply with the clergy of their choice to serve a god or goddess. They could do so at level 1, or wait til level 50 if they wanted. When they choose a deity, they will then receive the appropriate skills available from that deity. In the beginning the choices will be Shallya and Sigmar. Shallya will be a support role type cleric, with more focus on healing and group benefits. Sigmar will give more of a templar feel, a battle cleric with more focus on combat and ridding the lands of Chaos. Later on more choices will become available. Hopefully will have alot of time to work on this on Tuesday, work has been slamming me very hard the last week or so and that's the next time I have any serious amount of time to sit down and try to balance this stuff properly. Ideas for skills or special abilities for either of those gods will of course be welcomed.

2004/11/30, 20:12, Bragni:
so who would the skavens ,goblins and orcs look to for infernal powers?

2004/11/30, 20:17, Taal:

Well, at the moment we have Goblin Spiritualist for the Goblin caster. The spiritualist gets his powers from the ancient goblin spirits, does he not? Shouldn't be much harder to justify that their spells also come from the same source. Orc shamans are magic users more closely related to a mage/wizard I think, or perhaps a druid. Dunno about skavens, but the point for cleric is that a Cleric is wielding power granted upon him by a specific deity. There are no classes in greenskin or skaven sides that does exactly this, thus we do not need to concern ourselves with those the same way we do clerics for the good races. Each class needs to be different, yet the same (for balance). We might not need any other class that won't get their spells until they choose to. As for clerics, we should make it so that if a cleric drops below a certain alignment (depending on which deity chosen), he/she should lose his/her powers, and need to do some attonement to be accepted anew. - Taal, waiting expectantly for more proposals from Slaanesh =)

2004/12/01, 08:46, Slaanesh:

Clerics revised: This is what I've got worked so far. If you got ideas/spells/skills to add, please let me know. I don't want to hear any bitching or crying about this and that if you refuse to add any input! As of tonight only got Shallya reworked, will work of Sigmar tomorrow. If these seem feasible to the coders, I'll get the specs I need to submit for skills/spells and give you guys what you need asap. Here goes... My basic premise will be that priests start out as normal people with normal professions, and at some point in their life decided that they needed something more, they needed a deity to fill whatever was missing in their life. At level 1 they will start out as 'a priest', with skills available that allow them to choose whatever type of background they want for their character, such as blacksmith, armourer, woodsman, you name it. The character will then have a chance to decide which particular deity best suits what they'd like to do. This choice will be available from level one until infinity, but once the choice is made the choice is permanent. Once you dedicate yourself to a deity, there is no going back. Players will be able to learn about the various deities by travelling the lands and visiting temples and shrines. Level 1 chars that start out in Grunburg will be able to visit a shrine of Shallya to learn more about her. The priest there though cannot accept applications into the Order, he will advise the player to go to Altdorf and seek more help there. To begin with, there will be two Orders to choose from, those of Shallya and Sigmar. Shallya is the goddess of healing, and her priests will serve more of a support role. They will specialize is healing, curing wounds, removing poisons and diseases, and having support spells. Sigmar is the basic main deity of the Empire. His priests focus more on ridding the lands of evil and chaos. His clerics are not as adept at healing abilities as those of Shallya, but they are also better trained for direct combat and will receive spells/skills suitable for combatting greenskins and undead. Basic priest skills: When the character is created these are the skills that I suggest be made available to them at level 1. Weapon skills: staves (manageable) At this point, the priest has had no formal weapon training by any trainers, so they will only know a weapon that is common to most peasants (ie staves and quarterstaves). Non-Weapon skills: smithing (troublesome) carpeting (troublesome) tailoring (manageable) riding (manageable) swimming (manageable) climbing (manageable) wilderness (challenging) tracking (demanding) These are all skills a normal person could pick up in their life before joining the clergy. Basic priests will get no special spells or abilities until they choose a deity. Priests of Shallya Priest of Shallya shall always maintain a good alignment. Failure to do so removes the casting abilities of the priest or priestess. Sometimes accidents do happen and evil acts can mistakenly occur. In such events, the priest may apply for atonement at the proper temple facility. Repeatedly evil acts though will not be tolerated by Shallya, and if this happens she may strike down her servant for all eternity. Priests are not proficient in the use of armors and shields, as they are required to use both hands for many of their healing arts. Rumor has it though that many of her servants possess items to help compensate for her servants protection. Priests of Shallya are of course not geared towards being solo pkillers, they are meant as healers and support role players for groups (as per Shallya's nature and wishes). 3: Class Ability: Advanced Healer: When casting healing spells, a cleric of Shallya gains +1 magic level (capping out at Luminary) Spells: Ameliorating touch (simple) Rinse (effortless) Endow (demanding) Sacred Warding (simple) Skills: Bandage (effortless) Poultrice (troublesome) While bandaging is for taking care of wounds, the usage of poultirces would be to aid in the process of healing. Through use of this skill a priest of Shallya can increase the natural healing ability of a person for a short time. This healing can further be increased by the uses of herbs (and the herblore skill). If a magical attempt to heal a person having been bound with a poultrice occurs, the poultrice automatically fails due to the interferance. A person will not benefit from multiple poultrices, the person with the most skill taking precedance. Herblores (troublesome) Priests of Shallya are taught how to use natural medicines to aid in their healing. With this skill they are easier able to identify plants that the priest can use, and put them to better use when trying to uses poultrices, dilute poisons, and aid disease victims. 5: Combat Skills: At this point in the priest's career, there is a higher likelyhood that the priest will enter harm's way in trying to aid others. In order to protect them from undue injury, basic combat survival skills are taught, such as how to avoid blows and to block incoming attacks. Parry (challenging) Dodge (grueling) Aura of Faith (demanding) 8: Spells: Sacellum (troublesome) Healing Circle (manageable) This spell allows the priest to heal the entire group present in the same location as if they had had an ameliorating touch spell cast on them. The mana cost should be approx 1.75 that of an ame spell. Greater Endow (vexing) This spells allows the caster to target a certain ability they would like increased instead of the randomness given by the Endow spell. The compromise is, only one stat can be increased.and it can only be used on the caster (due to difficulty of coding a target area on another person) 10: Advanced Combat Skills: Two-handed (grueling) Rescue (troublesome) Concussion (troublesome) Evasive Style (demanding) Skills: First Aid (manageable) The healer has been versed on making tools to aid in the healing process. If the healer has the proper items, he/she can make splints and bandages which speed up the healing process of critical wounds and reduces the effects they have upon the victim. He has also learned how to stop poisons and cure diseases with the right combination of herblores 13: Spells: Heal the Faithful (troublesome) Winds of Shallya (troublesome) This spell creates a strong force gale that carries away enemies from the casters locations. An enemies chance of being blown away and how many rooms depends upon their weight and will power. The direction and distance is random, up to 3 rooms away. This spell does not work indoors, and will not blow a target indoors either. Cup of Purity (challenging) The spell creates a magic cup that contains an elixir powerful enough to counter one malady afflicting a person. This malady could be a spell effect, a trap effect, or even a magical poison or disease. Staff of Shallya (challenging) Upon casting this spell, the priest implores Shallya to protect her servant with a staff of energy. The power of this staff is dependant upon the casters alignment. The caster will receive a warning when the weapon is about to dissipate, but will last a fairly decent amount of time. 15: Class ability: Expert Healer (automatic) The clerics spells operate up to 2 levels higher for all healing type spells up to the maximum magic level of Luminary 18: Spells: Trolls Fortitude (demanding) When this spell is cast on a target, their hp regen increases dramatically for a short duration. Their wounds and critical hits also close faster then normal. This spell was once called Shallya's Blessings, but when some common folk saw it affect a friend of theirs, they exclaimed that their friend was healing like a troll, and the name has stuck since. This spell does not stack with other rate healing spells, like refresh. Ressurection (Bewildering) By casting this spell on a fallen comrade, if the comrade is still resting peacefully in the heavens, their soul is called back to their body. Their exp penalty for death is reduced and they awaken with all the equipment not taken from their body. They only awaken though with 25% of their life force, so this might not be the best choice of spells to cast in hectic combat situations. It also drains the cleric, making them fatigued (lower move, hp, and mana regen for a duration). 20: Class ability: Divine healer (automatic) The cleric has mastered the healing arts, and their prayers are heard fully by Shallya. When casting a spell of healing (aside from ressurection), the minimum amount healed is raised by 50%. For example, if a cleric cast Ame on a person and it was supposed to cure 1-10 this cycle, it would instead cure 5-10. As clerics of Shallya are not adept at killing foes in combat, I would recommend that their penalty for being killed in combat be lessed to 75% of the exp they'd normally lose.

2004/12/01, 08:48, Slaanesh:
Heh wrote this in wordpad and all the indentations got all messed up. Ah well, it looked alot better in wordpad, I swear!

2004/12/01, 11:30, Malal:

Great work Slaanesh, I like it alot. There is only 1 thing I think we should discuss: conversion, you shouldnt be stuck in your deity, should be able to convert to whatever god you want, thought the process might prove very difficult especially if those deities have very different ways. I understand the reason for preventing conversion (being you shouldnt lvl up a more straightforward deity and then just convert to one thats more suitble for what you aimed the character for) however if the process and 'the road' is long enough we can probably prevent those kinds of conversions. Also I feel that if you commit several evil acts as a follower of Shallya, you should just get banned from her temple and the temple of all the other good gods, until you redeem. It seems unlikly that the god of healing would strike you down.

2004/12/01, 14:39, Taal:

This looks like great work, lots of effort put into it, and this rework will need all classes to be reworked in a similar way (which might take some time... although I'll try to help when I get a couple of examples to see the 'trend' of how you want the classes to be built.) A couple of points (both good and bad) a) I like the way you have made all the 'general' skills exactly that - general. Available at first level. This should be common for all classes imo (at least for good side races), although at varying difficulty degree. Lets call first level the 'peasant' level... :) b) Bandage, Poultrice, Herblores, First Aid It might be a bit over kill with a First Aid skill that does virtually the same as Bandage, Poultrice and Herblores combined plus some. IMO either Clerics should have only the First Aid skill instead of Bandage, Poultrice, whatever, or the First Aid skill should be something else or removed entirely. c) Advanced Healer Should be given as a class ability only when the cleric has shown some worth and dedication to Shallya, and I think level 3 is a bit early for this. Possibly level 5 would be a better choice for such an ability, although I propose as much as level 10 for this one and d) Expert Healer, Divine Healer these should also be available at higher levels. Expert at 20, Divine at 30 or so. (They are quite powerful). Divine Healer might even be extremely powerful when it's combined with the others. Of course, this is the purpose of a Shallya priest, and virtually the only thing they -can- do, so it should be powerful, but we should try to not make it overly powerful. e) both spells at level 18 here are also quite powerful, and that resurrection thing should be highly malused imo. something like setting both caster and victim to 1 hp/mana/moves (like MUME foy) f) cup of purity not sure about this one. I don't really like it, but can't come up with good suggestion to it either. Other than that I think this is a very good draft for our new clerics. I will wait expectantly for the Sigmar version and then at at least another template so that I more easily can help add some thoughts myself. =) - Taal

2004/12/01, 14:44, Taal:

As for converting.. Hmm.. I think that we later should have a template for the 'fallen' cleric, a cleric that fails one god would most likely not be allowed in by another, unless that god is a enemy of the first god. Perhaps all fallen clerics gets their powers by some chaos-god, or something. At least, I don't think we should focus too much on converting, we simply state that it is not possible, either you stick to your own faith, or you will not be able to use your class skills. If, however, we add the possibility to convert, I think the character should lose quite some experience in the process, as well as resetting all pracs. Also, for Shallya, I think she should have at least one 'attack'-spell, perhaps Banishment or something like that. (In addition to the winds thing) Another point I noticed, is this less xp loss at death.. dunno about that point, it's hard to justify why this support character should get less loss than any other character, since there might be varying ways of playing a char, and some chars are support characters, while others aren't. - Taal

2004/12/01, 15:38, Taal:
You forgot the skill: Memorize, which I think all classes with spells should have =) - Taal, the board-spammer

2004/12/01, 16:20, Slaanesh:

I can live with changing the levels on advanced, expert, and divine healer from what I listed above to 10, 20, 25. First aid is a bit differant then bandage and poultrice. What this skill does is allow the cleric to 'forge' items that can improve some skills (like bandage) or help the cleric remove maladies (such as curing poisons or diseases if you have the right herbs). Poultrice is my nonmagical way of allowing a cleric to help heal chars through the use of herblores. Ressurection isn't as overpowering as it seems. The caster will be virtually helpless afterwards, having been drained of all their mana and will be fatigued (less regen for a time). The victim will come back only at only a quarter of their hps and no spells effects, which even for Slayers means they are still only a few hits from dying again. The main advantage of the spell is coming back into your old body and the reduction of exploss. The reason I want to add this is that some might see this as a worthwhile reason to play a class that does virtually no damage in pkill and exping. As for the pkill exploss, this is another benefit I wanted to give players for taking on a role many would not want to. The idea of having a peaceful char on a mud will be hard to swallow for many. Since the cleric will have no means to kill another char besides their weapon, and a priest of shallya going toe to toe melee with someone will be a slaughter, they should get some benefits for playing such a 'weakened' role. I didn't give Shallya an attack spell since I decided it wouldn't be in here nature, except for against diciples of Nurgle, and that was too specific an attack spell to make worth adding to the class. Shallya has no domain against spirits or demons, so from a rp stance, I couldn't justify giving them banishment. As for memorize, I don't know. I don't envision these clerics as 'casters' so to speak, more as healers. I wouldn't be against giving them memorize if more agreed they should have it, but just doesn't seem too neccesary for the spell selection I currently have listed. The fallen cleric idea is interesting, but I think thats something that will really need to be worked out so as to avoid abuse. I think for now though we need to make it so that being bad as a cleric is a bad idea. Same for switching gods, could be abused very easily, so for the moment would like to keep them along one path. The striking down idea was more for repeat offenders who seem to be repeatedly falling to evil ways and annoying immortals to redeem them time and time again. I don't think Shallya would be mad about accidental evil acts (ie a group member kills some good mob before you can respond for example, or someone accidentily kills a group member with an area affect spell). But, if you choose to hang out with evildoers, get a bunch of exp, then ask to be redeemed, she wouldn't be much for that.

2004/12/04, 02:41, Morr:

Did I applaud you? well I do it again. Memorize: I started a discussion under ideas. I believe we must tackle this as a separate skill. Q1: do we want that one gains xp from healing others? I have seen alot discussion concerning this, my feelings are mixed because its control or rather the control not to abuse this fact can be very complicated. Q2: regarding the aura faith. I liked your idea in general that class skills should be always available. Not depending on the practices but rather on other issues like in shallya case it is the alignment. Or in a wardancer case can be the sum of fighting skills or in wizard case the maximum elemental knowledge etc. There is no clear identification about the class skill yet. But I believe, once more, giving aura faith as a free skill that is controlled by your acts --> *refreshing* If no one has an objection I would like to take the basic template from here and put it in the code board to give it a go.

2004/12/04, 22:58, Tyan:

About memorize, you could give certain classes that use more spiritual based spells a seperate skill called concentration, that gives them a chance to complete their casting despite being hit, though bash would obviously still cancel the spell. Depending on level of concentration the caster would be more likely to succeed, and could be affected by other factors such as will, how many enemies are engaged etc.

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